Comments on: An Alternative Approach: Portland should wait out MLS http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html News from Portland Timbers USL team Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:26:12 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Nick C http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html#comment-608 Nick C Thu, 08 May 2008 21:42:09 +0000 http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html#comment-608 Whatever happens — please let a new baseball park for the Bevos be downtown near transit, not in the suburbs. The Rose Quarter, Post Office Site, even Hollywood, Hawthorne or Belmont would be better than halfway out to Clackamas. Whatever happens — please let a new baseball park for the Bevos be downtown near transit, not in the suburbs.

The Rose Quarter, Post Office Site, even Hollywood, Hawthorne or Belmont would be better than halfway out to Clackamas.

]]> By: Jon http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html#comment-607 Jon Thu, 08 May 2008 21:18:45 +0000 http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html#comment-607 Good point about the persuasiveness of solid fanbase and existing growth on MLS expansion plans, RC. That's the fundamental difference of opinion regarding this article, in my opinion. Let's take two hypothetical situations: 1) Portland, with its great fans, culture, and tradition as a great soccer city already in place, but balking at paying the expansion fee as Pfenning suggests... and 2) Bumblefvck City in Bumblefvck State (for the hell of it, let's say Lawrence, Kansas... hi Tye), with no current team, no history, no fans, no nothing, but bankrolled by by a super rich owner willing to pay the $40 million in a heartbeat. Who does MLS choose for expansion? Pfenning would say Portland. And Pfenning would be wrong. MLS would take Lawrence 11 times out of 10 in that situation. Good point about the persuasiveness of solid fanbase and existing growth on MLS expansion plans, RC. That’s the fundamental difference of opinion regarding this article, in my opinion. Let’s take two hypothetical situations: 1) Portland, with its great fans, culture, and tradition as a great soccer city already in place, but balking at paying the expansion fee as Pfenning suggests… and 2) Bumblefvck City in Bumblefvck State (for the hell of it, let’s say Lawrence, Kansas… hi Tye), with no current team, no history, no fans, no nothing, but bankrolled by by a super rich owner willing to pay the $40 million in a heartbeat. Who does MLS choose for expansion? Pfenning would say Portland. And Pfenning would be wrong. MLS would take Lawrence 11 times out of 10 in that situation.

]]> By: RC http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html#comment-606 RC Thu, 08 May 2008 20:47:47 +0000 http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html#comment-606 MLS has not shown that it pays attention to fan base when considering a franchise location, otherwise Rochester and Montreal would have been in ahead of Toronto. Florida has lost two MLS teams due to attendance and yet commentary seems to continually link a new franchise back into Miami. And the Philly & St. Louis bids seem to have come from nowhere...and were not related to underlying teams/success. While rushing in may not always be prudent, the very real risk that Vancouver comes in as a 2nd NW area team would seem to cause problems for Portland waiting around to get in later. My sense is that if I had to "sell" building a baseball stadium vs. a soccer stadium in Portland, the baseball stadium is the easier sell (based on that PGE won't work for MLB, but seems just fine for soccer). I agree with you Bob, that the jury is still out on foreign ownership/agreements to share soccer knowledge...what are the US teams really getting? Doesn't seem like the foreign owners give a rip about local success, they just want the US access and marketing. And ultimately, it was the financial instability of the foreign owner that killed off the California Victory, not the Victory's own limited existance. MLS has not shown that it pays attention to fan base when considering a franchise location, otherwise Rochester and Montreal would have been in ahead of Toronto. Florida has lost two MLS teams due to attendance and yet commentary seems to continually link a new franchise back into Miami. And the Philly & St. Louis bids seem to have come from nowhere…and were not related to underlying teams/success. While rushing in may not always be prudent, the very real risk that Vancouver comes in as a 2nd NW area team would seem to cause problems for Portland waiting around to get in later.

My sense is that if I had to “sell” building a baseball stadium vs. a soccer stadium in Portland, the baseball stadium is the easier sell (based on that PGE won’t work for MLB, but seems just fine for soccer).

I agree with you Bob, that the jury is still out on foreign ownership/agreements to share soccer knowledge…what are the US teams really getting? Doesn’t seem like the foreign owners give a rip about local success, they just want the US access and marketing. And ultimately, it was the financial instability of the foreign owner that killed off the California Victory, not the Victory’s own limited existance.

]]> By: Jon http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html#comment-605 Jon Thu, 08 May 2008 20:29:10 +0000 http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html#comment-605 I'll give Pfenning some credit for providing some counter-arguments while still supporting the overall idea, but that's about it... otherwise, I totally disagree with his points. 1. If the Timbers become bigger-budget, bigger-crowd, bigger-salary, that just gives MLS more insentive to ENFORCE, rather than eliminate, a high expansion fee under the "you're racking it in, you can afford it" umbrella. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see the expansion sticker price rise under that scenario. 2. I don't know where he got his info about other potential cities, but St. Louis, Montreal, NYC2, and potentially Miami and Vancouver are at least equal to, if not ahead of, Portland in the expansion sweepstakes, so no, not "advantage Portland." 3. Building a brand new soccer stadium in the central city core is a nice idea and all, but it's daydreaming. First, you're not likely going to find the land. And second, even if you do, the cost of the land and stadium construction is going to be double or triple what it would cost to renovate PGE Park for soccer and build a minor league baseball stadium in another neighborhood. Plus, as others always point out, PGE Park has such a fabulous location, history, and tradition that it holds a high level of cache, aura, and respect already, even without the fancy modern bells and whistles. Bottom line: thanks for the interesting read, Pfenning, but Paulson is doing it the right way. On a separate note... you're the best blog writer the world has ever seen, Bob. Always an insightful, informative, and witty read. I’ll give Pfenning some credit for providing some counter-arguments while still supporting the overall idea, but that’s about it… otherwise, I totally disagree with his points.

1. If the Timbers become bigger-budget, bigger-crowd, bigger-salary, that just gives MLS more insentive to ENFORCE, rather than eliminate, a high expansion fee under the “you’re racking it in, you can afford it” umbrella. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the expansion sticker price rise under that scenario.

2. I don’t know where he got his info about other potential cities, but St. Louis, Montreal, NYC2, and potentially Miami and Vancouver are at least equal to, if not ahead of, Portland in the expansion sweepstakes, so no, not “advantage Portland.”

3. Building a brand new soccer stadium in the central city core is a nice idea and all, but it’s daydreaming. First, you’re not likely going to find the land. And second, even if you do, the cost of the land and stadium construction is going to be double or triple what it would cost to renovate PGE Park for soccer and build a minor league baseball stadium in another neighborhood. Plus, as others always point out, PGE Park has such a fabulous location, history, and tradition that it holds a high level of cache, aura, and respect already, even without the fancy modern bells and whistles.

Bottom line: thanks for the interesting read, Pfenning, but Paulson is doing it the right way.

On a separate note… you’re the best blog writer the world has ever seen, Bob. Always an insightful, informative, and witty read.

]]> By: Barnacle Brian http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html#comment-604 Barnacle Brian Thu, 08 May 2008 20:15:24 +0000 http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html#comment-604 This is yet another reason why I read Bob's Offside Blog before my own emails. This is yet another reason why I read Bob’s Offside Blog before my own emails.

]]> By: Treeha'di' http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html#comment-603 Treeha'di' Thu, 08 May 2008 18:32:01 +0000 http://timbers.theoffside.com/portland-mls-expansion/an-alternative-approach-portland-should-wait-out-mls.html#comment-603 Well reasoned counter arguments Bob. PGE Park would be the Wrigley/Fenway/Highbury of MLS, in a sport and league light in tradition and authenticity. If you were a casual sport fan flipping channels on a Saturday (circa 2010) and decided on giving soccer a shot after watching the World Cup, and suddenly you see the Timbers playing live from downtown Portland, with a rabid and deafening torrent of chants and energy, emanating from within an rustic and charming stadium, it just might turn you into an instafan. Baseball realized at somepoint that steel collassus's and concrete domes were killing the league and sport, and got into building new parks designed like old parks--they replicated the authentic and intimate feel of 'the good old day'. PGE has what you cannot buy. It is more than a pitch and more than a park, it is more akin to a cathedral or sacred ground. Well reasoned counter arguments Bob. PGE Park would be the Wrigley/Fenway/Highbury of MLS, in a sport and league light in tradition and authenticity. If you were a casual sport fan flipping channels on a Saturday (circa 2010) and decided on giving soccer a shot after watching the World Cup, and suddenly you see the Timbers playing live from downtown Portland, with a rabid and deafening torrent of chants and energy, emanating from within an rustic and charming stadium, it just might turn you into an instafan. Baseball realized at somepoint that steel collassus’s and concrete domes were killing the league and sport, and got into building new parks designed like old parks–they replicated the authentic and intimate feel of ‘the good old day’. PGE has what you cannot buy. It is more than a pitch and more than a park, it is more akin to a cathedral or sacred ground.

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